14c28n steel vs d2 14c28n steel vs d2

Importing steel from Europe to the USA, or vice versa, generally increases the cost. European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. No mainstream companies use SM100, and the niche makers that do usually charge more than $1,000 for knives with SM100 blades. Below I have shown the difference in carbide volume between AEB-L, CPM-10V, and Rex 121 to get an idea of how much more carbide there is in the high edge retention steels. and our The blackwashed D2 steel blade of the Kershaw Cannonball offers pretty good corrosion resistance for D2. 14C28N vs. D2. The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. Are you familiar with anything similar on the metallurgy/knife steel side of things? Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. SPY27 it seems like all the pieces are in place to develop an algorithm for this. 20? The brand designed it as a carbide replacement. Steels like CPM MagnaCut, CPM M4, CPM 4V, and CPM CruWear fit in this category. For high wear resistance and edge retention you want a large amount of hard carbides. So the major tradeoff is in how much carbide you want in the steel for edge retention without dropping toughness too much for the intended knife and user. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. Because of its difficulty in sharpening and machining, its very rarely used and comes with a high price premium. 12C27 steel is extremely popular in the US knife market for its high hardness, high wear resistance, and great corrosion resistance. On the other hand, in d2 air-hardness steel, you cant differentially temper the blade-like other high carbon steel because the steel can also be challenging to sharpen. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. SG2 So for most steels they are given a rating at around 59-62 Rc, apart from a few steels that are never used at that hardness. My name is Jonathan M, and Im a passionate Mechanical Engineer, a knife enthusiast, and the author of this website. Opinel Number 9 in carbon steel, and a Cold Steel Tanto Lite in their stainless steel. Advantages: Toughness, edge retention. Hes already done a three part series on cryogenic treatment: 14C28N and D2 knives are affordable high-end knives. Ease of Sharpening: One advantage of 8Cr13MoV is that it is easier to sharpen than D2 steel. Wear resistance comes from hardness and carbides, hard particles formed between carbon and another element like Vanadium or Tungsten. Its a good balance between all three attributes, being relatively hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. And before you start arguing on behalf of the steel you think might be perfect, let me remind you that if your knife isnt perfect for a task, youll need to get another one that is! Another is that 8Cr13MoV is a generic name for a specific composition while AUS-8 is a name of a product by a specific company. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! 1.4116 Find your right answers here! Below, weve listed some of the attributes you might want out of your steel and given some examples in both the more expensive powder metallurgy steels and more affordable conventionally produced steels. Instead, Vargo titanium uses a unique material called sintered titanium-ceramic alloy. What makes 1.4116 such a bad performer in regards to toughness on par with ultra high carbide steel like S125V? I have a question about the chart Powder metallurgy is a technology designed to maintain a small carbide size. This is a major tradeoff between improved cutting ability and edge retention with an acute angle vs a strong and chip resistant edge with an obtuse angle. -> Maybe prequenched 14c28n could be a little tougher than AEB-L? This is also a powder-metal steel produced by American steel company Crucible. Oftentimes steels that are reported to be difficult to sharpen are in fact improperly heat treated and challenging to deburr. Not as tough as the best carbon steels, it's tougher than most . Wusthof Classic Ikon 8-Inch Cooks Knife Review, Victorinox Fibrox Straight Edge Chefs Knife Review, What is Cts bd1 steel? Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? In a pocket knife the total amount of steel is rather small. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. However, it falls behind the Bohler steel in corrosion resistance. Five years ago, S30V had a premium price. Though the volume of carbonitrides in the steel is relatively high. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Combination of knife steel properties. Sandvik 14C28N steel is better than D2 steel in corrosion resistance and toughness. Must-Have Bowie Knives for Your Collection, What is Micarta and What Makes It a Great Knife Handle, Top 8 Reasons Why Knives Make the Best Gifts, Pocket Clips: Carry Safely and Comfortably, Make a Knife Your Own with Accessories & Customization. Generally seen as a slight upgrade to the 440C/VG-10/ATS-34 caliber of steel, its a decent all-around steel with good corrosion resistance, decent toughness, and only modest hardness. 440B Im not sure they answer my question, though, and some of your points dont seem to jive with the info here on Larrins site. This was not necessarily because of superior toughness but because of the superior strength of the MagnaCut from higher hardness. As a result, there are no production knives with REX 121 steel, though Ferrum Forge used the steel early on in its custom knives and a Kickstarter knife from the Creely Brothers. It is an upgrade of 12C27, and 13C26 steel initially used to make blades for shaving razors. While 14C28N and D2 are both pretty to look at, buyers always regard one over the other. It is a Sandvik stainless steel that originally developed for razor blades. Im a layman trying to understand what makes the best steel for my use. Take a look at this edge retention test. The 14C28N, on the other hand, is tougher. in relation to hardness). I also added a few more steels in this study. The best scenario is when the steel, heat treatment, and geometry are selected for the knife and the use. what does a cvn of 40 v.s 20 mean? LC 200N is an elite performer, with high hardness, high toughness, and off-the-charts corrosion resistance. Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. I hope you will find value in the articles on this website. REX 121 is a powder steel produced by Crucible. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. Lots of information is still specific to this article, however. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. My favorites of the high edge retention group are Vanadis 8 and CPM-10V. A Japanese powder steel, ZDP-189 is essentially the polar opposite of 3V its uber-hard instead of uber-tough. And below shows a chart of carbide hardness, the equation we created to predict edge retention based on edge angle, hardness, and carbide volumes, and then the chart showing the good correlation: TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) 17.8*EdgeAngle() + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). I know that one does not normally make knife blades of titanium, but I gather that Ti is extremely corrosion resistant, used for saltwater applications, etc. The both blade are equally wear resistant. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. For example, D2 has enough chromium to be stainless (~12%) but its high carbon means that too much chromium carbide is formed to leave enough chromium for stainless levels of corrosion resistance. . What is pulling that line high and to the right? Pretty interesting that regrinding a knife you already have can seemingly take its performance to that of significantly better steels. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: 6/10: 6/10: CIVIVI Knives Elementum Folding Pocket Knife 2.96" D2 Satin Blade . SUS410 We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Carbon steels are those that have primarily carbon added to them with some Mn or Si as well. Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. I believe they are made of simple carbon steel. Steels patina in the acid at varying rates which allows for one steel to etch darker than the other and show that famous patterned contrast. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. Larrin, thank you for this. Contact me if you have any questions or input! 14C28N steel is the improved version of 13C26 with better rust resistance. This refers to the angle of your edge and the thickness of the knife behind the edge. D2 steel is more durable than 14C28N, but it scores lower in terms of ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. 9cr18mov vs 14c28n. The 1.4116 I tested has large carbides in it which is presumably the reason for low measured toughness: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/. Lately Ive been edcing one of those instead of a nice folder. 14c28n has less carbon and chromium as compared to 9Cr steel. In addition, According to Sandvik, 14C28N steel is easy to work on, reducing production costs and hence affordable knives. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. GiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife, Muley Freaks Erik Van Woerkom Charged With Felony Possession of Trophy Mule Deer, The Biggest Improvement to My Camp Kitchen Is a Mini Pizza Oven (But Not for Pizza), Propane Traeger, Moosejaw Coolers, Hybrid HOKAs, Adventure Chess, and More Emerging Gear, Avalanche Outside British Columbia Resort Buries 10, Kills 3 Heli-Skiers, Netflix Unveils First Trailer for Tour de France Series. Its OK to be a steel snob, but keep in mind that you dont have to if you want a good knife. Its so high in hardness that Maxamet knives usually ship with desiccating packages. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. 14C28N knives will handle challenging and demanding applications without chipping, cracking, or breaking. The high hardness makes it all but impossible to sharpen and machine. AEB-L is a non-powder steel produced by Swedish steelmaker Uddeholm. I would think that the label applies to either the line or the outlier, but probably not both unless the outlier is a measurement error. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. Anybody know how the Sandvik stacks up against all these other steels. They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. There is an acceptable range for every element so this doesnt mean that 1084 will always have exactly 0.84% carbon. If you have a favorite steel, rock on! Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Therefore, if your priority is a knife with the best toughness on the market, you can never go wrong with the varieties of 14C28N. 440C steel With a high level ofedge retention, corrosion resistance, and toughness, it does most everything quite well. Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. Most of the user loves this one that has received a lot of attention on this site. But weve tested this metal in the form of the Sobata 398 for nearly a year and have been continually impressed. I have not provided a rating for ease in sharpening. 14C28N steel is known to offer the highest toughness levels out there. This particular steel grade allows for the highest attainable hardness without. Steel high in carbides cant be stamped out; it must be cut by a waterjet or laser, which takes time and is more expensive. But as the market has grown and newer steels have come out, it has fallen in price and prestige. . But among the steels youll find at Cabelas and the like, this is a pretty good choice. Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. Due to its higher Chromium content, S30v is a lot less likely to corrode/rust than the D2 Steel. Marco, BSc Chem. And steels with at least 10% chromium are probably stainless, except for several important exceptions like D2 and ZDP-189. you can easily buy a $500 knive made out of 14c28n, which has nothing in it besides cr and a trace of ni. Therefore, ensure to wash and dry your knives after use to keep the rust away. Theres still a lot of misinformation being pushed by influencers especially in knife steel rankings. Any idea where it would be on the hardness and toughness scales? Stainless steels usually top out around 64 Rc and may require careful heat treating to get there. Between the assisted open, weird looking texture designs, and the stainless steel handle, the Cannonball has a lot of features I don't normally like, but even I have to admit it's a good design for the price. Im going to give the ratings first and then give more explanation about how the ratings were created. I have a couple questions, not directly related to this specific post, that I wanted to ask publically so that others could find your responses as well, so here seemed as good a place as any. Where did it come from? AR-RPM9 Corrosion is not only cosmetic. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: Note:There is a powder-metal version called CPM154 thats purer than the non-powder version, making it easier for knifemakers to grind. A2 Knife Steel Air-hardened tool steel. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, which include chromium carbides. Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. Since the heat treatment is done before you get your knife, and its impossible to tell how good the heat treatment is with your eye, you often must rely on the manufacturers reputation for a good heat treat. Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. There is buzz out there but I havent seen anything solid yet in the world of steel. Thanks to powder metallurgy, youll find even better edge retention on the high end. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) It's more often pitted against the VG10 since both are widely popular high-carbon stainless steel grades. vanax For more information see our. For more information, please see our There are a few other complicating factors such as carbon in solution and plate martensite, especially in low alloy steels such as described in this article. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. This is about comparing steels to each other rather than a limitation of an individual steel. 14C28N knives are easier to sharpen than D2 knives. Vanadium carbides are among the hardest that form in steel, and chromium carbides are in between iron carbide and vanadium carbide. D2 has been around for more than 20 years, an eternity in. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. D2 steel knives, on the other hand, offer great edge retention and wear resistance, which are properties of tool steels.14C28ND2Toughness93.5Edge retention35Corrosion resistance8.54.5Ease of sharpeningEasyModerately Hard14C28N vs D2. And only Vanax and LC200N have been free from corrosion with a 3.5% saltwater solution, though MagnaCut was close. Is there some way we might predict the relative "effective toughness" of different steels at different hardness and at different edge angles? I can also say from personal experience that marine grade plywood will chaw up your saw blade and battery a lot quicker than standard plywood, but that probably says more about the glue that was used than the wood. On the other hand, Speed safe assisted opening allows for easy blade deployment with the use of a simple pull back on the ambidextrous flipper. If you want to check the quality of my work, just search for The EDC Bible on Amazon. In real life, would you expect any presumed increase in deviation from the specified formula, as well as the effects of said deviation, to negatively impact the performance of 8Cr13MoV to any truly noticeable degree? It gets exceptionally sharp, a nod to its origins as a razorblade steel. The biggest change that is seen with powder metallurgy in measured properties is in regards to toughness. When it debuted, Sal Glesser described XHP as a combination of D2s hardness and 440Cs corrosion resistance. Diving into the pool of knife personalization possibilities is a fantastic way to fend off the post-knife-buy blues. What about K390? Its an anomaly in the knife world and quite puzzling to use. Ive not seen these used on non-kitchen knives, though, and it seems that if they had real utility they would be used in other knives as well although perhaps on the thinner edges of kitchen knives they are more effective than they would be elsewhere? as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. D2 is a tool steel used in industrial settings. At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? Im not hating on 80crv2 , Ive used it. a burr might have developped on some of the steels and not on others, it might have ben reduced or even removed by the process. Which knife for best? Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. FRN n690 Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. This can turn the ultra corrosion resistant LC200N or Vanax into a normal stainless steel that will rust with only 1% saltwater. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. Distilled water can separate steels that are stainless vs those that are not. Each test is done with 3 or more specimens to get a good average. It is a premium steel that is known for its excellent balance of hardness, corrosion resistance, and edge retention. Its easy to sharpen. You do not expect the prices to be as low as those of low-end knives, but you will get high performance at affordable prices with either. 1.4116 got a 2.5 for toughness and edge retention where as 420HC got a 9 for toughness and a 2.5 for edge retention. Compared to the AUS10A, the D2 has a longer legacy since it's been around since 1918. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/. I have a (relatively) short introduction before getting into the ratings with a few important things to put them into context. However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. the problem is in the innumerable combinations of grades, grains sizes and coatings available. The highest edge retention steel was Rex 121 which was at 70 Rc in combination with lots of high hardness vanadium carbides. To reiterate the clearer part, I wonder if toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases as an edge gets thicker. Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form. That is an air-hardening- high carbon, high chromium tool steel. PESR would be an interesting topic too (also tied to LC200N). After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. A new steel from Crucible, SPY27 launched in 2020 in the Spyderco Native 5and Para 3. Everyone has their own opinion on what they deem the best folding EDC knife. D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. And Michael Fitzgerald, Tim Marais, and Head VI for increasing their contributions. We all have our preference, but overall, preference leans towards the pocket knife with a clip. Or even a 7 in both categories. AEB-L and 14C28N also have moderate edge retention though of course much lower than vanadium-alloyed powder metallurgy steels like S30V or M390. However, D2 steel has better edge retention, while 14C28N offers a better sharpening experience. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ This means consumers should be able to maintain these quality knives at home. It will take you more time and energy to get a sharp edge, but your efforts will pay off because the blades hold the edge longer. Sandvik 14C28N steel offers excellent corrosion resistance, exceptional toughness, good edge retention, and is easier to sharpen. This steel is quite corrosion resistant and sharpens easily. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). 8670 and 5160 are good choices for large knives that need very high toughness. On the flip side D2 steel is much harder than other steels in this category such as 154CM or ATS-34 and as a result holds its edge a little better. CTS-204P and CPM-20CV are nearly identical steels made by other manufacturers. The D2 version is heavier and harder, but doesn't cut as smoothly. But which? Many steel ratings articles pay lip service to the importance of heat treatment without providing examples. Thank you for such a great article! . The majority of knives target 63 Rc or below so this limitation of stainless steels does not always come into play but can be an important factor for certain knives targeting high performance and thin edges.